2018 “pride” month is over and we’re in the first of eleven straight months
That’s probably the first thing straight people will react to, a “straight month”, what’s that? Well, that’s what the LGBT community lives through when it’s not Pride day, week or – in the US – month. It’s our everyday life. Someone told me just today that “I can understand how gay people would only ever read gay fiction…” I’ve yet to meet that person. I doubt they exist. Why? School! Tell me a single school where gay literature is an integral part of the school’s curriculum, where “LGBT” isn’t just confined to sex ed, or being damned and banned altogether. We’ve all grown up watching straight TV, straight movies, playing straight games, seeing straight couples everywhere and, yes, reading straight literature, from our kids’ books to adult literature. Straight people don’t realize it, but the world is awfully straight. Everywhere. It’s a wonder we turn out alright after all that brainwashing. LOL
There is a lot on my mind these days, and I’ve reached a point in my life where I am once again enraged. Not just by the injustices against my people in barbaric countries like the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iran or Russia, but so-called civilized countries like the UK, where the minister in question thinks it’s perfectly okay for “female only” events to ban trans women or the US, where… Yeah, let’s not ruin the mood completely, shall we?
Worst kind of “con crud”…
A couple of weeks ago, I returned from a convention for LGBT writers, and while there was a significant LGBT representation there, most of the attending authors and readers were not (which per se would not be a problem), and at one point, when discussions began to circle around “mpreg” (the in-word for male pregnancy, and we’re not talking about trans men here!), I had to leave the room. So much of the “m/m” world is so badly homophobic that I became physically ill. When later in the evening, we were discussing an upcoming panel at another convention, the “male writer panel” was quickly identified as “that’s where we learn the mechanics of it all…” Let’s just say if that’s going to be the case, despite assurances by the organizer to the contrary, I’ll leave that panel. But let’s face it, as a man, a gay man, in “this genre” (generally depicting male-male romances, which are nothing but reading material for women to get off) I have long ago been reduced to a sex toy, or – alternatively – an instructor to teach straight women the basics of anal sex, since you can’t ask questions on porn channels. Dare I open my mouth, I’m told to shut my filthy trap and stop mansplaining.
And so I shut my filthy trap and make fists in private, for the longest time. I dared not speak up against penises as swag, at “cock-walks” which aren’t about roosters or all those perfect half-naked specimens of male models on the covers, or all the porn actors that dance around some authors like flies drawn to the … I’ve once wondered why it always had to be porn actors and not regular teachers, or mechanics, bakers or homemakers. I guess we’re not good enough masturbation material, and we most certainly suck at being PR material when it’s time to sell our latest oeuvre… Nothing wrong with porn actors per se. I’m sure they’re nice people like the rest of us, but let’s not fool ourselves. The interest in their personalities is about as deep as someones next orgasm. “I know a porn star!” Well good for you. I know many human beings, regardless of their profession, but I don’t collect them by profession.
“You hate romance, that’s why…”
If anyone were to actually read this, I’d be accused of hating romance, and they might not be entirely wrong. I’ve really begun to dislike the genre as a whole, but not because I dislike love stories, it’s because of the many rules regarding sex in romance and particularly the appropriation of gay men in M/M. Just the other day someone told me they read M/M because the het equivalent (which I depict F/M (but predictably, women put the men first and call it M/F) wasn’t realistic enough… Yeah right, I can totally see that… If a grandmother came home with her bullied grandchild from school, a child she looks after because her daughter is dead, a child she had to pick up from the principal’s office, would you deem it realistic if she sent said child to their room to be able to fuck her lover? No, of course not. No sensible female would do that, right? Totally unrealistic. She’d (rightly) be expected to realistically comfort that child, look after them, send loverboy on his merry way. But the gay grandfather in the M/M? Sure, let him be fucked brainless by the ex-Seal from across the street. It was, after all, time for that sex scene in the chapter, right? We can’t disappoint our readers now, can we? Totally believable, and so realistic. Who really cares about the grandchild. Move away, orgasm on the way here. Men are sex pigs after all. Especially those gay guys. They’re the worst. We’ve all seen it, haven’t we? Redtube, Pornhub, those CockyBoys… Totally “realistic”! NOT! #DNF
I’m enraged. I’m enraged because so many of the 130,000 books on Amazon that supposedly are about LGBT people, in fact, aren’t. The men in those books aren’t real, they’re about as real as vampires or shapeshifters, probably less so. Gay men (and more) have been appropriated by mostly het white women to make money. They color their hair and nails in rainbow colors, but if you point out to them that their depictions aren’t realistic, you’re labeled a male chauvinist pig and you better stop mansplaining them, and besides, and I quote “M/M is a fantasy, created by women for women, not men!” My favorite defense of all times when faced with criticism of how they write about gay men: “I have a gay friend.” #facepalm
So where do stories about real men go? Those of us (regardless of gender) who write outside the M/M sea label them “gay fiction”, but now even that is contested because some of the M/M authors claim that if “M/M is about fiction primarily for women, then I’m not an M/M author. I write gay fiction!” Thank you very much. Now you’ve just taken our last refuge. I feel like the proverbial Indian being evicted from his reservation! No offense to my native American friends, but you get the point. These people don’t care about us, they care about their balance sheet, and gay men are the pen(ises) to balance their checkbook. #CulturalAppropriation
Great stories are lost in the vast sea of M/M. Books worth reading are like grains of sand on a beach. How do you know which is which? #NeedleInAHaystack
Actually, I don’t, but don’t let that stop you from saying so anyway…
What makes it so heartbreakingly difficult is the fact that there are some truly amazing gay romance stories out there, that there are authors, men, women, others, gay, straight, bi, other, who pour their life’s blood into each and every book they write. People who do their research, people who know what they’re writing about. I think I’ve said it before that I’m no big fan of #ownvoices because we’d never have seen characters like Othello, Romeo, Julia, Lady Macbeth or Hamlet see the light of day at Skakespeare’s hands if #ownvoices were da shit, because: how dare he write them? He was white, not black, like Othello, a dude, not a girl like Julia, a man, not a boy like Romeo, not evil like Lady Macbeth or Danish, like Hamlet. Empathy is every great author’s tool. And therefore any great het writer should be able to bring gay characters to life. There is precedent, just saying. However, in the romance genre, the rules are followed all too rigidly by far too many, strange reader expectations and author desires for a quick buck are dangerous ingredients in a foul-smelling blend.
It’s difficult to explain to an outsider how it feels to be appropriated by another group for their (sexual) amusement. Insiders have tried, like this great author friend of mine. Authors using cock-shaped key chains as swag. I ask you this: if men showed up at an RWA convention with cunt-shaped swag, would you laugh hysterically, jump up and down and scream “OMG I need one of those!”? If I were to collect money for say, a charity to benefit abused women, auctioning off countless cunt shaped objects, quilts, macramé, pottery etc., would you find that amusing? Or if I’d invite Stormy Daniels to perform at the RWA gala dinner, dangling her tits over your entré? Titillating? Would you be able to keep your hands in check or would they be all over her? What if I wrote erotica (!) where the intestines and vaginal tracts of the heroine were torn apart (literally!) again, and again, and again by (take your pick) dinosaurs, dragons or ancient gods only to magically heal by divine power or the “magic” semen of the male beast in dub-con/non-con (I call it for what it is, rape) scene after scene? Book after book?
Allow me to exemplify…
In M/M, that’s not only possible, chances are the bottom ends up magically pregnant, not to mention that all is forgiven and they end up happily ever after in the end. This is of course also true for the trans woman who is so badly injured by her rapist that she is hospitalized for months (!!!), hanging on to life by a thread. Needless to say, she ends up moving in with her rapist in the end. Why did he rape her? He was upset she had certain dangly parts left… Totally believable, right? Transphobia & rape, all beautifully wrapped on KU for Her to get off. I have read things in M/M that have left me traumatized for life, and these are just a few of the examples.
It’s weird, you know, attending an LGBT writing conference, listening to a panel about diversity (a good panel, mind you, nothing wrong with that), and how we should be more inclusive of mental disease, ethnicity, age etc. and how important it was for, and I quote “accurate and true representation”. Yet I sit in the audience and wonder, why doesn’t that basic and healthy concept of “accurate and true representation” which these panels demand for just about every nuance under the limitless rainbow, why does this basic concept not apply to gay or bisexual men? Why is it okay to see us pregnant even though so many of us are involuntarily childless, suffering that pain, that emptiness, day after day for our entire lives. To be reminded of that in fiction, callously shortened as mpreg is, is utterly disgusting and heartless, and no matter what attempts at justification these authors and readers may offer, there can be none. Why is it okay for men to be “gay for you” even though there is no such thing in real life. We’re all on a spectrum between the two poles. Denying that, to maintain that “illusion” of heterosexuality, simply because it has a higher status? Shame on you. Your homo- / biphobia disgust me! True representation? My ass! #outrage
Life is rarely simple. I know some amazing authors, but they make bad friends in real life. I know some really crap authors (with regards to the above), yet they’re good people. The same can be said about readers. Such is life. I am angry, really pissed off, but this post isn’t about you, not you personally anyway. Chances are it might just be about your reading choices or your writing decisions, but it’s not a judgment of you as a human being. Most likely I don’t know you personally, and even if I do, it’s probably superficially at best, from social media or a brief hello at a conference. So please, as you go through various emotional reactions to this post, keep that in mind. Most people are kind, some are simply ignorant. Some never actually think about the ramifications of their actions, what signals they send. I was once told by a reader of these rape books that she “liked her men to suffer, just as she had once suffered at the hands of her rapist, and then some, just for good measure.” Revenge is a dish best served horny, it seems. Might I suggest a slightly more constructive choice of therapy? Counseling maybe? I understand the pain of rape far too well (#MeToo), and if writing helps you cope, heal? Great. But does it have to be published? And why do you feel the need to punish gay men for your heterosexual rape?
Think about this for a moment…
In closing: yes, I’m angry, furious at a literary world where gay men are reduced to vibrators, and I’m incredibly saddened that this happens while my people in the real world still fight for their lives, their dignity, and their happiness. Think about it, for every sex scene that you jerked off to in your latest M/M, a gay man was hung in Iran, flogged in Saudi Arabia, tortured in Chechnya, imprisoned in Uganda, thrown off a roof-top in Syria, fired for getting married in America, disappeared forever in Russia, or China; stoned in Afghanistan, burned with acid in Pakistan, mass raped by an angry village mob in rural India, denied to adopt his partner’s child in Poland, or killed outside a gay club in London. I could go on and on (and I’ve said nothing about my sisters, bisexuals or trans/intersex people who all suffer through variations or hells similar–or worse–to ours.)
Yes, the (LGBT) world needs positive stories, we need romance, we need love. What we don’t need is to be reduced to toy boys for your reading and masturbation pleasure (or bank account.) Can we at least agree on that?
Hans M Hirschi
Writer of gay and LGBT fiction
Thank you for this post. And just for the record, I don’t feel targeted at all, just because I’ve got tits. No doubt you will be called a misogynist but I don’t see it. The rage is real and should be heard. I’m a white, pan, female author, who has written three books under the M/M romance genre. I was lucky enough to meet a gay man who critiqued my first work and pointed out all the issues you mentioned. Until then I hadn’t thought about it. It hadn’t even occurred to me. So I learned, and changed. My books aren’t “for women.” They never have been, to be honest, but over the years I’ve learned to celebrate diversity, and not make stories just about M/F, but people whose sexuality and gender are explored as each novel develops. I’ve been told my work is niche because one of my main characters is nonbinary. My response is that people are people, and readers sticking to “mainstream” miss out on a huge amount of fantastic fiction, whilst some assume that LGBTQA fiction means porn. That’s really sad. In the end, there is room for fiction of all genres, but as authors we must assume responsibility when we are talking about an actual group of people who are going through incredibly tough challenges. Covering them with rainbow dust and giving them a makeover just isn’t going to cut it.
And I’m also totally with you on the cock swag. What the fuck is that all about? Can I add another? Authors who bitch on FB after being banned for posting suggestive, objectifying pictures of men. If it were women with their tits out, there would be an outcry, so just… stop. Or at least think about it FFS
LOL Thank you, Jayne! Yes, there is a lot we can do better. I’ve been keeping mum about this for years now, because who wants to be called a snowflake, right? But you get to the point where it’s just too much. #LoveWins
I feel touched and slightly unsettled after having read your post. As I see my son growing up, seeing him having issues with his sexuality, I hope that for him there are good books out there that will touch him and hekp him discover who he is. I never knew about thw regidity in this mm world or this level of stigmatisation. But it does explain a lot to me. This post has given me some eye openers for sure. Thanks !
Hey Lexy! There are plenty of good books out there, these days, which is very different from when I grew up. The challenge is to find those pearls. It’s a bit hit and miss here. Happy to help if I can. Good luck!
Yep, you’ve nailed it, all the reasons why I hide out in a tiny corner of the fiction market. Yes, I market my stories as “M/M” and sometimes even “romance”, on purpose, so I can sell something. No, I do not play nicely by the rules. I’ve seen all that horrible treatment of men for years now, ever since I got really into slash fanfic in the late 90s, and a lot of it makes me sick. And, like you, I’ve read stuff that left scars for life, things that got sent to the huge virtual DNF pile.
But then, there are several of us hiding in that tiny little corner, people who tell stories. And oh yeah, a lot of the characters are gay, or bi, or non-binary, or trans. And guess what? We treat them like people. That’s why we’re not wildly popular. (I personally get lots of crap for writing bi characters. I’m bi, so it never occurred to me that bi people would be seen as unbelievable.)
Anyway, the point is we do exist. Many of us. And we write a lot. And with all of us together writing good stories with characters who happen to be LGBTQ, we’re actually becoming more visible. There is definitely hope for the future. I’m really glad you spoke out, highlighting how just plain gross the world of M/M romance can be. It can’t hurt to rub the noses of that type of author in the crappy things they do. Maybe all they need is a good, solid kick in the butt to make them realize they’re being just as awful to men as some men can be to women. That’s not cool, people.
Thanks for your insightful comment, Marie. I appreciate the time and effort. I once tried to accommodate the genre, hoping I’d sell more, using a couple on a cover. It didn’t help as I already had a “reputation”. My first published book is my bestselling one, to date. I’m probably the only author with that problem. LOL So these days, I try to make sure my covers spell quality and have a more literary appeal, and I try to put a safe distance between my work and M/M, and people still label it that way, even if the story is about as M/M as a rotten fish, but yeah… I wish there were a way to distinguish non-romance as easily as the het literature is separated from romance on Amazon, but as long as the behemoth doesn’t care (and why should they?) nothing’s going to change.
I’m sure I share many of your views, expressed here and in your older posts. And there are some things I fundamentally disagree with you about. And I think that’s OK too, I hope we’ll talk about these things at a future con.
I’m reading this on the same day Jay Northcote published the results of his survey into who reads MM: https://jaynorthcote.com/2018/07/18/mm-romance-readership-survey-results/. The survey suggests a minority of readers are straight women.
You wrote: “while there was a significant LGBT representation there, most of the attending authors and readers were not.”
I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion. I was there. I didn’t know most of the people attending, but if I were to extrapolate based on those I do know something about, then I’d conclude the majority of attendees were LGBTQ (in fact, that was my assumption).
When we live day to day in the straight world that you so correctly described in opening this peice, if we don’t stand out as too queer, too femme, too butch then the default assumption is straight. I’ve certainly had this all my life.
My point is: I think it is very important to recognise that queer women make up a substantial proportion of the readers and writers of gay fiction and gay romance. Yet we’re often ignored and invisible and it’s assumed we’re straight. Just saying…
And I didn’t go to the Mpreg discussion so I totally missed stuff.
You’ve identified many issues here. I think one of them is how we find good books among the mass on Amazon. I don’t think search amazon will ever be the best way to find books. Too many. Too random. I tend to go to places for recommendations. There’s a FB group for example that specifically excludes MM. I’m ruthless and DNF a lot of books so may have avoided the bad ones that you’ve seen.
But I’m happy to read romantic, sexy erotic books too. I totally share your views on sex scenes. I don’t want them to be a tick box recipe. I want sex scenes to exist because they are a part of the story, they take it forward, so that the story doesn’t make sense if you cut them.
I’ve certainly seen negative reviews when the reviewer skips the sex scenes but then complains the story didn’t make sense!
I am annoyed when I read reviewers that complain the guys didn’t have sex when they DID have sex in my opinion, they just didn’t have anal sex. I ‘m not sure it’s down to homphobia. I think it is more of a general ignorance about sex, love, and relationships. Those readers must also thing lesbians don’t have sex if there is no penis involved!
Where I disagree with you is this:
1) I think people should be able to publish and read any fiction they want, even if it is fiction that I don’t like or approve of or I think is downright trash because in the other direction we have censorship and that’s a dangerous place.
2) I think it is OK for people to enjoy reading erotica or watching porn of any kind (legal obviously – consenting adults). I would add, just because someone likes LGBT erotica/porn it doesn’t automatically mean they are an LGBT ally. And I think this is a point for conflict between real LGBT people and the readers who just love their fantasy world.
While cock swag may be inappropriate. I think it is also worth considering the recent history of female sexuality in the western world.
Men (regardless of sexuality) have always assumed to be sexual creatures.
Not true for women.
Go back only 50 years, or less, 40 years everything in society told us men were sexual creatures and women were not. Women claiming ownership of sexual desire, or sex toys, of porn and of masturbation is still a feminist issue and a radical action. It’s still rebellious.
I’m 50. I’ve seen the celebration of women claiming their sexuality within my lifetime. Porn made for women by women, sex shops for women, sex toy parties all within my lifetime.
Women getting together and honestly talking about what turns them on is important in spaces where it is safe to do that is important.
Of course, at the same time as this social revolution, adult people shouldn’t treat other adult people like sex objects/toys/ belittle them.
Where to start: first thank you for taking the time to respond! 🙂 Second, while Jay’s survey is interesting, it certainly can’t be considered representative. He says so himself. And you’re wrong, even in his report, 41% identify as straight, by far the largest group. But more importantly, this isn’t really interesting. I don’t care what sexuality, gender identity, faith or ethnicity someone has. If “they” expect me to be supportive of “them”, that I portray them adequately, truthfully and authentic, may I politely expect the same in return? This is really the core of this discussion: gay men are not portrayed authentically, not in M/M. Yes, there are exceptions, but take one look at any cover and you should realize what I’m talking about. And your mentioning of cock swag fits the pattern of my argument. Why use gay men to achieve that worthy goal? An oppressed and persecuted minority? Why does the sexual liberation of women (which I support 100%!) have to come at our expense? Think about that… We still die at the hands of straight society, is it so much to ask that sexual liberation comes from somewhere else?
Let me just focus on one more aspect: of course, I would never suggest censorship, but while we have (in most of our western countries at least) a constitutional right to speak our mind, that doesn’t include the right to have that published. It also doesn’t mean that I can’t question the sense in writing everything that comes to mind. I won’t stop anyone from doing so, publishing it or reading it, but I also don’t have to like it. As little as you like all of my thoughts! 😉
I agree with some of the things you’ve said, but it seems to me that you are talking mostly about Erotica, not Romance, or a very niche sub-category the includes mpreg. I admit, mpreg isn’t my thing so I don’t read it, and thus I cannot comment on that, and I’m against non-con scenes in Romance, unless the book deals with the consequences of rape and how people try to recover from it. However, on the topic of men being represented as just human vibrators: that’s in Erotica (where women are represented the same way; as a bi woman, I read FF scenes, as well as MM, and FM), and maybe some Romances that are borderline Erotica.
The MM Romances I usually read have sex scenes, but also characters with complicated pasts, who help each other grow and heal. A novel like that might also include detailed sex every now and then, but I don’t see how that’s objectifying the men (or women, if we move outside MM). Like it or not, sex or the lack of sex is an important part of a relationship, so why not portray it in Romance?
Just because a book has A LOT of sex, doesn’t automatically make it a bad book or an attempt to sell to a horny audience. What if a character is trying to ignore their internal turmoil through sex? What if the book is about them realizing that’s not a healthy way to deal with your emotions?
Yes, there will be a lot of (probably graphic) sex, but the book would still have a message, and could be a really good and inspirational book, regardless of how many scenes which could turn the audience on are in it. And here I don’t mean just the female audience. I know you asked us not to take this post personally, but you pretty much said women only read MM to get off. As a female reader who spends a lot of her time talking to other women who read, I can tell you that we enjoy the sweet moments (think a character being upset and their partner cooking them their favorite meal and cuddling on the couch) as much as we enjoy the sex scenes. Again: talking about Romance, not Erotica with a few romantic elements thrown in.
Hey Dilyana. Thanks for your comment and the time you took to leave it. I have no beef with romance and I understand that people get a lot from reading these books, and I am very well aware that I was being poignant. Sadly, there are really good romances (see my reviews of some on this blog), but there are also ones that should be labeled erotica (but aren’t) and some, where the sex is anatomically impossible or just not in the realm of the possible (e.g. enjoying a first-time anal penetration. I’ve yet to meet a guy who was fucked the first time and thoroughly enjoyed it. The pain is just too excruciating. And they go at it without lube)
So I’m not saying that “ALL” M/M romance is bad, but that there’s too much that IS bad, where we are being appropriated as a group that is discriminated. My litmus test is always the same: what would the equivalent in FM be like? Would it be okay to portray a character that way?
The funny thing is this: I don’t mind if someone gets off on a sex scene (or ten) in a book. I really don’t (I have even written an erotica myself.) But at least portray it in a realistic way, in a way that is respectful of the men that are portrayed. I read your comment and it seems you have found authors who do that for you. Great. I hope you’ll never come across some of those who don’t… Another interesting thing I’ve noticed in the “drama” after my post: people contacting me saying there IS too much sex in M/M. Who knows, if more people contact the publishers, maybe we’ll see a more realistic portrayal of gay men and their sex life, both the addicts (those DO exist) and those who are ACE. Once again, it’s about the spectrum. Be well!
I agree with you that an unrealistic scene takes you out of the book, and I think that your comparison test could be a useful way for writers to check themselves. It’s good to always question what you’ve written; it makes you a better writer. As for books that have themes I don’t enjoy: when a book isn’t doing it for me, I just don’t read it (unless I was sent an ARC to review on my blog).
1. M-preg isn’t my thing. So I don’t read it. Just like I don’t read rape fantasy. Yet somehow I manage not to tell people who love rape fantasies that those books shouldn’t exist.
2. Every man out there doing drag basically appropriates women’s identities in THE most ridiculous, unrealistic way possible. But it’s fun so who cares, right?
3. Everything you said basically boils down to “a lot of books are bad and poorly written.” Well, yeah. Everyone already knows that. Literally every genre is overflowing with awful books that — hold on to your hat here — portray all kinds of people unrealistically. Wouldn’t it be awesome if nobody wrote and published terrible books? BUT THEY DO. They will, forever and ever. We all have to get over it and move on. Let’s all share the awesome books instead.
Thanks for your comment, Ally. I agree with much of what you say, par maybe 2) A minority cannot appropriate a majority, but more importantly, so many drag artists were/are not gay men, but trans women. So that’s a whole different ballgame! 🙂
Thus why I specified “men.” Because trans women are WOMEN, not men. Though I should clarify cis men, because trans men have lived as females, usually. Also, I really do think drag is pretty fun and I don’t actually have a problem with it. It’s just that the irony here hurts my brain.
Fair point about women being a majority (slightly). OTOH, men hold a significant power advantage over women the world over. IMO, this makes a huge difference. And (this is important) gay men are NOT excluded from that power advantage. I’ve been inappropriately touched, talked over, spoken down to, ignored, “eeewwwww”ed at, etc etc by plenty of gay men. Not as often as straight men, and I don’t generally feel physically threatened. But that same power dynamic does exist, too often. I’m not the only woman who’s had this experience, either.
I’m truly sorry you’ve felt objectified. It’s not pleasant, is it? You need to know that the way you expressed that, as if no one else outside your corner of the rainbow could possibly understand, is very much putting people off. Sexual objectification is a woman’s day-to-day lived experience, generally from a pretty young age. We not only understand, we deal with it every single day of our lives, everywhere we go. Not just conferences, though cons are included (ask the women you know how many have been sexually assaulted at a con; I have). Every genre of literature, and film, and television, constantly shows women as sex objects and/or a reason for a man to Do The Thing. I get that you don’t like the cock swag. But you can walk away from it. Women can’t walk away from all the “you’re a sex doll” shit hitting us in the eyeballs all day, every day, everywhere. I’d think you of all people would understand that. I know you must have experienced similar bullshit (and similar danger) from being out as a gay man, with all the sewage people still spew about the LGBTQ community. If you’ve ever felt angry, or helpless, or afraid because some asshole threatened you because of who you are, remember that, and remember that almost every woman you know has experienced that same anger, and helplessness, and fear at some point in her life — most likely many times — because some man didn’t like how she was womaning at the moment.
And yes, I’m very angry right now, and trying extremely hard to be civil. It’s not my default setting these days. You got Nice Ally, because it seems like you’re just trying to express your point of view, and I think it’s worth discussing. I can be ranty elsewhere.
Let’s leave drag behind us! 🙂 It’s just a different beast. I’ll focus on the objectification because it is clearly at the center of my message. Yes, I do understand that women are objectified daily, constantly. Hence my simple question: why do it to us? Us being gay men? And when I say minority, I mean not in the terms of “male” but in the sense of LGBT “oppressed” minority. And then it’s not just “slightly”, it immensely. We are still illegal in thirteen countries. But let’s not rehash that. And while I can walk away from cock swag, I can’t walk away from everything else, the naked men in my Facebook stream, the book covers, the comments, the questions, the screaming and yelling at conferences. This is why I wondered, ever since I first walked into this world: given women’s experience, why do exactly the same to us? Why indeed? My only explanation to this day is: they don’t see it that way.
I understand that you (and others) are angry. Imagine how I feel. Thank you for your civility. I understand through the grapevine that you’re somewhat of an exception right now. LOL
I just want to say something about naked men in a social media stream:
We like looking at naked men. Some of this, not all, some is really a feminist declaration. See, we weren’t allowed to like cocks. If we did we were “sluts.” So we celebrate naked guys. I’m not much for cock swag, but I get it. It’s a declaration of independence from sexual repression. Something we all need more of. (Oh, and BTW, men have had cunt and tit keychains and other paraphernalia they carry and display to humiliate and intimidate women they encounter in daily life for many many decades. See, women don’t want to diminish men with those things, they want to share them with one another so they can support each other as sexual beings. You may not know this, but a large percentage of straight guys really hate women. Esp attractive ones.)
MM romance works for straight women because it’s the same power dynamic, but we can pick either side or both to identify with. Because let’s face it, if you want to be Anastasia Steele you need therapy way more than you need sex.
“Minority” status isn’t really about numbers, it’s always about power. If we counted say percentage of the total of each, there aren’t more gay men being tortured or killed than women. Children outstrip all of us.
People suck. (And sorry about Trump, we’re doing what we can.)
There’s an extraordinary amount of crap on the indie publishing heap. And I’m sorry this seems to have triggered you and hurt you so much. Sincerely.
But you’ve taken seriously a generation of women who read gay porn in the back of history class and write complete crap that’s sometimes barely English. This is the age of worldwide Johnlock hysteria and MMM hook-ups on Supernatural.
It’s so beneath your notice. Skip the convention next time. Just … start listing writers you love so we can all find them.
Namaste – addi
Powerful words; ideas that need to be taken to heart. Thank you for voicing what some of us have been unable to say.
<3 Thank you, David.
Completely disagree. This may be how YOU feel and I respect your opinion, but you don’t represent or speak for all gay cis male readers/authors. Personally, I don’t give a fuck about realism. So please stop generalizing. You’re making us male gay readers/authors look bad.
Hey Marco. I never claimed to speak for anybody else but me. I do know however that I’m far from being alone feeling this way, by far. 🙂 I also tried hard not to generalize, but there’s little I can do if people still perceive it this way. It’s each individuals prerogative. Those who know me personally know that I don’t tend to generalize. Be well.
Your perspective is an interesting one. I have a unique view, as I’ve been reading romance in general for the past 40+ years, from the Harlequin Presents in 70s and 80s (rape was a way of getting a woman, if you took those books seriously!) to some truly outstanding M/M romances.
Most importantly, please don’t look to romance or erotica of any kind for realistic representations of sex. Virgins climaxing the first time they have sex, and they have multiple orgasms to boot? People having sex while riding on a camel? (I can think of endless examples, some more ridiculous than others.) I don’t look to M/M books for realistic sex any more than I would a hetero romance. I do wish there were more books than didn’t present anal sex as the be all and end all. I haven’t found one yet, unfortunately.
I’m a bit perturbed, though, at being told I’m using these books as “masturbation tools” when nothing could be further from the truth. I read for the emotional components, and only when a sex scene incorporates that emotion do I actually bother to read it word for word. Otherwise I skip past it. I’m not a prude; erotica has its place, but it has to be well written and so much of it isn’t!
I read romances for the stories and the characters. Others may feel differently, but I’m extremely picky and discerning, and have skipped some very popular books and authors. Believe me, you can tell who is only in for the money vs who really cares about their craft.
Thank you for your comments Sandy. I appreciate that you’re not looking for realistic representations of sex. I get that really, and you’re not the first one to say so. But what about a fifteen- or sixteen-year-old gay teen who happens to read such a depiction in the first book he reads? What are we teaching him? And there is a good chance the second and third book will be the same. And it could be years before he has anyone to ask about it. The damage that could be done is not insignificant… As a parent and a concerned “elder” this worries me endlessly.
And I seriously doubt that you are “being told”, since I distinctly remember not thinking about you when I wrote my post. But I have met enough readers who do read books this way (I’ve been told so on countless occasions through the years). And if you reread my post, I have no problem with good sex, and you seem to concur that there’s too much that isn’t well written. Now there lies another devil, “emotional components”, as “men” and “women” seem to look at this differently, too. But that is an argument for another day. Glad you can tell who’s a good writer and who isn’t. Maybe compile a list? 😉
You raise an interesting point here. What are m/m romances teaching “gay teens” (I put that in quotes because I’m assuming here that you mean gay male teens, but really what I hope you meant to say is gay, bi, queer, questioning, etc teens)? I have a very different answer to that question than the conclusion it seems you have drawn. First off, what does romance teach any teen? As someone who began reading my grandmother’s romance novels when I was 9 years old, I’d have to say that it is an early way to explore the concepts of romantic relationships. Even at that early age I read knowing it was fiction and it didn’t make me expect that all my future romantic relationships would end with happily ever afters or be filled with perfect partners. Just like fairytales and soap operas, they’re stories, they’re not how-to books, they’re fictional representations.
Do little girls read heterosexual romance novels and assume they’re going to meet the perfect prince charming and have perfect sex and perfect orgasms every time? Maybe some do, but most don’t. Why? Because for one thing there are plenty of negative depictions of relationships and sex bombarding everyone on TV, in movies, in tabloids, in the news….it’s pretty clear that real life isn’t all roses like fairy tales and romances may be, and for queer teens those negative depictions are even more plentiful. For another thing, most romances have a hell of a lot of struggle in them alongside and prior to the “perfect” match of the featured characters. They talk about failed relationships, bad experiences, past broken hearts, etc. That’s what makes it so magical when the characters finally find their perfect partner in their book.
So what do “gay teens” learn? It’s not about expectations of perfection for them any more than it is for any straight girl who’s read het romance. Gay/bi/queer/questioning teens read m/m (or f/f) romance and they see several things: they see that it is possible for people who have the feelings they have to find a life partner, they see that people like them can have a happily ever after, they see that the struggles those characters went through didn’t destroy them and they’re still capable of happiness and worthy of love, and, if they realize that lots of straight people do in fact read and enjoy these stories, they see that maybe the entire world doesn’t look down on people “like them”, they see that maybe those people think stories about queer people in love are every bit as important as stories about straight people in love.
How do I know this as an adult cis het demisexual woman? I know because I write m/m romance and get countless fan letters from gay and bi men, many of whom are still in their teens, and they all tell me variations of the same thing. That my books give them hope that maybe they’ll some day find the love of their life and maybe society will actually be happy for them. Do people masturbate to my sex scene? Maybe. That’s really none of my business. And it’s certainly none of my concern if it is male or female readers or how they identify while they’re being turned on by my descriptions of sex. Oh, and for the record, first time anal sex for me, sans lube, was far less painful than first time vaginal sex with lube so please acknowledge that you’re speaking of your own perceptions and not universal truths.
People, regardless of gender and sexual orientation and age, read romance novels because they want to see two (or more) people find their happily ever afters. If they desire and have mindblowingly good sex in that journey to their HEA, great. If that’s arousing to the reader, great. If they skip those scenes, great. Sex is available for consumption in multiple forms all over the internet and television. People who choose to find it in romance novels are there to read the romantic journey and sex is just part of the trip. Reducing m/m romance to the label of “vibrators” and saying they’re for women is absurd. By doing so you may actually be the one keeping a “gay teen” from picking up a romance novel because you made that teen feel it wasn’t for them, and they’ll be missing the chance to see someone they can relate to winding up happy. Romance is for everyone. Everyone who wants to see two people of any pairing find their HEA.
Hey! Thanks for taking the time to comment. I agree with your conclusion: romance should be for everyone. That it isn’t, that specifially “M/M” is “from women for women” isn’t my quote, but something that’s been said and heard by some female writers again and again. I disagree, although I dislike the label.
You speak of gay teens. male-male is about gay (male) men (and once every eon, a bi man), which is why I didn’t mention girls, and people identifying otherwise. The “FF” I’ve read are radically different, and so are the trans stories I’ve seen. Luckily, much less exploitation, but beautiful love stories depicting the struggles you describe.
Have you seen “Love, Simon”? I would claim that even from a teen who has everything going for him, the experience of growing up LGBT is still hugely different from that of being a straight teen. And no TV or movies to balance it (the few exceptions being my point in case), provide perspective. They’re still alone in this experience, sometimes for years, sometimes for decades. Which is just one reason why those kids need realistic and positive stories (and by all means, HEAs), and not that which has become a hallmark for so much of those books. Not sure if that makes sense?
Hans, I do understand your concern about a gay teen who reads such books. The concern should be the same for teenage girls who read romances, yes? All of this should be balanced out by a loving friend or relative explaining how much real life differs. For example, constant antagonism works in books, but it’s not a recipe for a lasting relationship in the real world. And yes, I get it that gay teens are probably more isolated than others, because even asking certain questions can out them before they’re ready. I have no ready answer for that conundrum, unfortunately. It’s upsetting that the world can be such an unsafe place when you’re a teen, and doubly so when you’re gay, bi or questioning.
I don’t have too many auto buy authors, because even my favorites have gone astray at times, but I love Annabeth Albert, Heidi Cullinan, Alexis Hall, KJ Charles, Roan Parrish, Avon Gale, Tal Bauer, Nicky James, Elizabeth Varlet, and Amy Lane, just to name a few. I also like Riley Hart and L.A. Witt, but their books sometimes fall into the “too much sex” category. (YMMV, of course.)
Sandy, KJ Charles’ A Queer Trade and Rag and Bone has protags that don’t like anal.
Oh, I love KJ Charles! I’ll definitely look into those books. Thank you, Olivia!
You want to know my favourite part about that conference? Being told my LGBTQ people that it’s okay that I like LGBTQ fiction (yes, fiction, not just romance, yes LGBTQ, not just gay men) as a cis hetero woman. That I’m not a horrible monster or perverse. That I’m not stealing an LGBTQ writer’s place in the published world.
Your blog post, on the other hand, really hurts. I just spent the past 20 minutes crying. My husband told me I should ignore the post and not comment, but you told me how you feel, so I’m going to tell you how I feel.
You make the token effort to not generalise, but basically your post says that all cis hetero women use gay men just to get off, that we’re all really into rape and mpreg. And while a couple of people I’ve met over the years might fit some of that bill, the majority do not. Some of the things you describe are problematic, yes. If you’d written this article about things you didn’t like, about problems in mm or gay romance, that would be constructive. But this blog post basically attacks cis hetero women (or those you see as cis hetero women), which is not constructive.
Yes, I am aware that LGBTQ people still lack rights in many countries, can still be arrested or executed in some, and treated poorly in most countries. That’s why I donate a portion of my royalties to Rainbow Railroad, and organised an online auction to raise money to help persecuted Chechnyans last year.
And I recommend good LGBTQ fantasy to my readers. I recommended Disease just a couple months ago. I don’t really come across any fiction anymore that has any of the problems you’re talking about.
On agreeing that gay men shouldn’t be objectified or used to line your bank account, well, yeah. That’s not really in question. If we wanted to make money hand over fist, then we should write the latest trends in hetero romance. There’s a bigger audience there. Except we don’t. Because these are the stories we want to read. Besides, I’m for authors making money. I want my favourite authors to be able to write full-time, because then I get so many more books to read.
Oh, and the male panel where you’re expected to explain how sex works? That’s really good food for thought. Write about that. Write what you’d rather talk about instead. It gets lost in the rest of the rant.
Where to start? Yes. good question. My starting point was that I was also at EPC a few weeks ago. In your post, you made the point:
“while there was a significant LGBT representation there, most of the attending authors and readers were not.”
I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. It is relevant to the rest of your post, otherwise you wouldn’t have said it.
So, can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the majority in the room at EPC were not LGBTQi.
I want to thank you for this piece; from what you say in the piece, it’s clear that this is something that has bothered you for some time, and it clearly wasn’t easy to speak up.
I think your concerns about using gay male characters as titillation is one that warrants much thought. It’s something that’s made me feel very uncomfortable in the past; I read romance for the emotional punch to my gut, and as you’ve highlighted in your piece, sometimes m/m can read as exploitative.
I’m also furious that the male panel was dismissed as the mechanics of sex panel. That is – if you’ll excuse my language – incredibly shitty, and gay men writing romance deserve so much more respect than that.
I do like #ownvoices, though I don’t think that people can’t write experiences that are different from their own, and I’d love to hear some of the authors that you think do do it well (am adding you to my tbr right now!)
With support from a bi-sister.
Thank you, Ali, for your comment. Great romance and great love stories are totally needed in the LGBT+ space, I’ve said this many times before. It’s the objectification and appropriation that is distasteful. We all (rightly!) speak up and complain when it happens to others (none mentioned, none forgotten), but in “m/m” the gloves seem to be off. 🙂
Be careful. What your suggesting is that m/m writers stop writing fiction. They should write non-fiction.
At least for me, the purpose of fiction, any genre from romance, sci-fi, mysteries to horror, should be not real. That’s kinda the point.
I’m very strict in what I read. Because I only read to entertain myself. Entertainment for me must not be too scary, always have a happy ending, and be interesting.
Every reader has criteria, whether they know it or not. Your probably more of a realistic reader, where you want to read things that feel real, that make more realistic logical sense. My partner is very much the same.
As a writer, though, there is an opposite side of the coin. I personally write what I would want to read, or as a form of therapy. So I have to use some form of magic or paranormal universe so that my characters, who are going through mental struggles, can become empowered to overcome with some nasty revenge. It doesn’t work in real life, so it has to have a fantasy setting. This allows characters to go through the struggle, and yet have things that the real world can’t give them.
As far as mpreg, I prefer magic to animalistic nature’s, but authors may just be making thier own dreams come true on paper.
Your a writer… So write. Write your more realistic books. Write the how tos for young teens. Add an preface to your work that informs them of your, or expected experiences.
There would be no art in writing if we all wrote the same way on the same subjects. There would be no imagination. And that would be a tragedy.
Hi! 🙂 Thanks for your comment. No, I’m not suggesting they write non-fiction. I merely suggest that some write more realistic (which is a far cry from “non-fic”) fiction that portrays people as human beings. S’all.